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Wide tires on skinny rims

Posted March 30, 2015 04:00PM by Skye in the Cycling Forum

Skye
Skye Skye Nott
@TheStaminist   Load error 5880115
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Joined: 4 years ago   Posts: 530

I had no idea you could fit such wide tires on narrow rims safely

http://www.schwalbetires.com/tech_info/tire_dimensions#rim

A 50mm tire on a 17mm rim might look a little funny though?

European Tire and Rim Technical Organization (ETRTO) Standards Manual - 2007

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ETRTO wheels and tires 2007.jpg 25.6 KB open | download
ETRTO wheels and tires 2007.jpg

slacker
slacker toboggan victorious
@komradepow   Load error 6151114
Location: Whistler
Joined: 4 years ago   Posts: 34

Well... there's a point where the sidewalls will bulge and handling / cornering will suffer, as well as shite aero, running wide tires on narrow/er rims.

Great news is that wider tires have less rolling resistance and a bigger contact patch (ie better grip, more comfortable ride). They're also MORE aero IF the rims are bigger, but LESS aero if the rims are smaller.

Running 23s on 20.9mm seems to be standard. My Roubaix came with 25mm tires on a 20.9mm rim and though I've run 23s I prefer 25s for grit, comfort, and handling. The 25/20.9 combo handles fine (though I am sure it would be better if the rim was wider) but isn't great for aero. I wouldn't want to go fatter on a 20.9mm rim, ie forget 28s, the sidewall bulge is going to be an issue with cornering/handling.

To really get the benefits from a 25mm tyre, you need to be running a 23–25mm rim. I'm looking at wheelset upgrades and though I'd dig Shimano Dura Ace 9000 C24/35s, their 20.9mm rim is looking dated. Rumour has it they'll be updating the line in 2016. I'm checking out Flo 30s and HED Ardennes (Black / FRs). The Flo 30s are especially attractive; they sell out in minutes in pre-order as they clock in at under $500USD for the clincher wheelset.

— beatz: http://djtobias.com
— tweetz: @komradepow


Skye
Skye Skye Nott
@TheStaminist   Load error 5880115
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Joined: 4 years ago   Posts: 530

I'm looking at the C24 or C35 for my new build, and the Fulcrum Zero, they look really nice. However from what I can tell, it's difficult or expensive or impossible to replace bits on most high end wheelsets (rims, spokes) and you can apparently have a wheelset custom built for the same price or lower, same weight, and with replaceable parts. I'm going to make some inquiries locally before deciding.

There are some smoking deals on eBay for Dura-Ace wheelsets but I'm wary as there seem to be a lot of fakes around. DT Swiss RR 21 would be in that group too, but it's also 21mm width.

Flo 30s look interesting, nice price point, a little heavy at 1625g for the pair. The 23mm wide HED Ardennes Plus FR look very nice at 1530g. Looks like the other Ardennes Plus models are 25mm wide.

Plus, I have that PowerTap G3 hub that I may want to build up a new rear wheel around. Have to decide if I want to ride Fondo's etc with the PM or just for training. Decisions, decisions. I do like the look of the straight pull hubs and bladed spokes.

I was doing some research on more 23mm rim options, infographic attached.

Quote
slacker
To really get the benefits from a 25mm tyre, you need to be running a 23–25mm rim. I'm looking at wheelset upgrades and though I'd dig Shimano Dura Ace 9000 C24/35s, their 20.9mm rim is looking dated. Rumour has it they'll be updating the line in 2016. I'm checking out Flo 30s and HED Ardennes (Black / FRs). The Flo 30s are especially attractive; they sell out in minutes in pre-order as they clock in at under $500USD for the clincher wheelset.

Webmaster - Staminist.com

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23mm wheelsets.jpg 38.2 KB open | download
23mm wheelsets.jpg

Skye
Skye Skye Nott
@TheStaminist   Load error 5880115
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Joined: 4 years ago   Posts: 530

Specifically those HED Belgium C2 rims look interesting. I'll have to do some math with some DT Swiss hubs and spokes and see what I can come up with.

Webmaster - Staminist.com

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hed-belgium-c2-wheel-rim.jpg 21.7 KB open | download
hed-belgium-c2-wheel-rim.jpg

slacker
slacker toboggan victorious
@komradepow   Load error 6151114
Location: Whistler
Joined: 4 years ago   Posts: 34

Quote
Skye
I'm looking at the C24 or C35 for my new build, and the Fulcrum Zero, they look really nice. However from what I can tell, it's difficult or expensive or impossible to replace bits on most high end wheelsets (rims, spokes) and you can apparently have a wheelset custom built for the same price or lower, same weight, and with replaceable parts. I'm going to make some inquiries locally before deciding.

C24/C35 are a cut above Fulcrum Zeros. I have Fulcrum Racing 4s, which is the Racing 3 rim with the Quattro hub — this is the stock wheelset on the Roubaix Expert. They are excellent for training. But worth noting that 100% of the reviews I've read have placed the Shimano C24/35 far above the Fulcrum Zero, which most seemingly informed reviews have called "overpriced."

As for replacement parts, you should have no issue getting bladed Shimano spokes; it's just that you might have to order in and wait a few days. It's just unlikely a LBS will have them sitting in stock. As for replacing the rim itself — if you've mucked a rim that bad it's an entire rebuild or new purchase anyway, lol.

If going custom, I wouldn't go C24/35 — what's the point with a 20.9mm rim? If I was to build a custom, it would be the Dura Ace 9000 hub (DT Swiss could also work for sure) with the HED Ardennes rim and Sapim CX-Ray spokes. Which leads me to ask — is the HED Belgium rim the same as the Ardennes? Sure looks like it.

Ideally I am waiting for Shimano to upgrade the C24/C35 to 23/25mm width. Frankly it's the best wheelset I've seen out there for bike racing. Note that I am thinking for the Coast Mountain riding I do — hills, descents, climbs, crosswind, rain, and braking safety are most important, not aero on the flats. There aren't any flats, really, and crosswind here is a real issue.

Quote
Skye
There are some smoking deals on eBay for Dura-Ace wheelsets but I'm wary as there seem to be a lot of fakes around. DT Swiss RR 21 would be in that group too, but it's also 21mm width.

Check ProBikeKit.ca (though apparently their customer service is nonexistent). Also CompetitiveCyclist.com with discount code ITALY21. Wiggle is also having a moving sale. Hence I am looking right now. I can get the C24s for $850 which is tempting. The next batch of Flos is supposed to arrive come mid-June, but I want something in hand ASAP for the Squamish Triathlon in July.

Quote
Skye
Flo 30s look interesting, nice price point, a little heavy at 1625g for the pair. The 23mm wide HED Ardennes Plus FR look very nice at 1530g. Looks like the other Ardennes Plus models are 25mm wide.

Flo30 also has toroidal shaping so helps with crosswinds on a rim closer to the C35 in depth but 25mm in width. It's the width I want the most. As for the 100g weight penalty, pssshh, it means very little in the scheme of things. Deep dish carbon rims are heavier by far than alloys but are preferred nonetheless. Drop some pounds off your body. ;p

Quote
Skye
Plus, I have that PowerTap G3 hub that I may want to build up a new rear wheel around.

There ya' go! Power meter makes the most sense for training. But then I'd prefer to get a separate power meter and keep the hub Shimano, Chris King or DT.

— beatz: http://djtobias.com
— tweetz: @komradepow


slacker
slacker toboggan victorious
@komradepow   Load error 6151114
Location: Whistler
Joined: 4 years ago   Posts: 34

Let me know what you find out with a HED Belgium build. Sapim CX-Ray spokes, and a good hub (DT Swiss or King). It might be advantageous for both of us with a local builder. It would need to come in cheaper than the Ardennes FR with sale pricing though (~$1100 CAD). Under $1000 CAD would be ideal.

Also nice thing about HED rims is that they are tubeless ready.

— beatz: http://djtobias.com
— tweetz: @komradepow


Skye
Skye Skye Nott
@TheStaminist   Load error 5880115
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Joined: 4 years ago   Posts: 530

I did some back of the envelope calculations based on the listed weights and prices at wheelbuilder.com
Not sure if the spoke weights include nipples or not. Rim tape will add another 15g each or so.

Front -- 462g rim $130 + 87g 20 spokes $75 + 197g DT 240 hub $165 = 746g $370
Rear w/ PowerTap G3 -- 462g rim $130 + 139g 32 spokes $115 + 325g PowerTap G3 hub = 926g $245 (+ cost of G3)
Rear w/ DT 240 -- 462g rim $130 + 104g 24 spokes $65 + 212g DT 240 hub $335 = 778g $530
+ $500 or so if you want ceramic bearings on your DT hubs
Prices USD + shipping + building of course

According to the website, "The HED Belgium C2 Clincher is a 23mm wide aluminum rim that's used in the Bastogne wheelset"

Pacenti SL23 is even lighter 450g and cheaper $99 even though it's wider at 24mm
Looks like you can have them custom built and shipped to you starting at $615 for the set with DT 350
http://www.wheelbuilder.com/custom-pacenti-road-wheels/

Straight pull vs J-bend hmm....



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Skye
Skye Skye Nott
@TheStaminist   Load error 5880115
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Joined: 4 years ago   Posts: 530

Apparently it's only $35 per wheel to build at Ride On here in Vancouver??
That's a lot cheaper than I expected

https://rideonagain.wordpress.com/custom-wheels/

Webmaster - Staminist.com

slacker
slacker toboggan victorious
@komradepow   Load error 6151114
Location: Whistler
Joined: 4 years ago   Posts: 34

Yah, I just ran through Wheelbuilder and I am already up to $1200USD for the *rear wheel only* . Also the Belgium+ C2 rims (25mm) are out of stock.

That said the cost includes a Powerhub GS (DT Swiss components) and buying a power meter separately is some $1000—$2000CAD. BUT a pedal power meter can be easily swapped from bike to bike. I guess the same could be said for a wheelset?

For the same price ~$1400USD one could get the Ardennes Black wheel set with the new kick-ass braking tech. So custom pricing through Wheelbuilder comes in a little more.

$35 for a wheel build at Ride On sounds suspiciously cheap. To properly build and true a road race wheel takes some time. This isn't commuter wheel builds... I think I'd want to phone them and ask as to their experience.

The marketing hype about factory wheelsets being tensioned by machines is kinda BS. If you're buying Dura Ace, HED, Zipp, Flo etc these are all "handbuilt". Zipp, Flo, Enve are all small-scale US local builders (though Zipp is now owned by SRAM — not sure if that's changed anything).

As for j-spoke vs straight, frankly I think worrying about such things is a waste of time. I wouldn't be concerned that a wheelset has straight spokes. And yah the Dura Aces are bladed so no spinning in the rim.

Also worth repeating: Flo 30s clock in at under $500USD *a set*. Flo60s clock in at $900USD *a set*. And those Dura Ace can be had for $850CAD *a set*.

Maybe give Ride On a call, ask to speak to their road race wheel builder?

— beatz: http://djtobias.com
— tweetz: @komradepow





Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2015 08:16PM by slacker.

slacker
slacker toboggan victorious
@komradepow   Load error 6151114
Location: Whistler
Joined: 4 years ago   Posts: 34

Btw, I got my Flos!

Been out on a handful of rides. Definitely noticed the increased flex compared to my Fulcrums. I had to back off my Ultegra brakes completely (as wide as they can go!), but the Roubaix has plenty of frame clearance otherwise. The rims make an interesting sound when getting up to speed, and they feel "hollow" compared to my Fulcrum climbing set. I also feel the wind in them more, though I've quickly adjusted.

— beatz: http://djtobias.com
— tweetz: @komradepow

Attachments

IMG_3463.jpg 62.2 KB open | download
IMG_3463.jpg

Skye
Skye Skye Nott
@TheStaminist   Load error 5880115
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Joined: 4 years ago   Posts: 530

Those look sweet! Nothing like a new set of wheels to make a bike feel totally different. What do they sound like getting up to speed?
I like how different manufacturer's freehubs sound different. Not that you'll be spending much time free wheeling at the Squamish Triathlon

Webmaster - Staminist.com

slacker
slacker toboggan victorious
@komradepow   Load error 6151114
Location: Whistler
Joined: 4 years ago   Posts: 34

They sound like a TAI FIGHTER — whilst training for the TT I have been making laser sounds whilst crouched in the aero bars.

— beatz: http://djtobias.com
— tweetz: @komradepow


Skye
Skye Skye Nott
@TheStaminist   Load error 5880115
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Joined: 4 years ago   Posts: 530

Cool. You gotta wonder though isn't any sound just wasted energy?

On the other hand, the Imperial March is 104 bpm, good cadence ;)

Webmaster - Staminist.com

Skye
Skye Skye Nott
@TheStaminist   Load error 5880115
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Joined: 4 years ago   Posts: 530

Just pulled my rear PowerTap G3 CycleOps branded alloy rim to fix a pinhole in the tube, and while I was waiting for the patch to set I threw my micrometer on the rim. To my surprise, it's the wider 23mm rim width version (18mm internal rim width) so maybe I'll be trying a 25mm tire on that soon.

Haven't bothered to get a new rear laced around the G3 yet, I think I'll probably switch to a pedal based power meter like the PowerTap P1 in the spring, and the heavier wheel is no problem for training. The Rubino Pro that's on it now has served me very well, although there are a few chunks out of the rubber here and there. Wouldn't mind trying one of those Specialized S-Works Turbo tires with Gripton, they come in 24mm and look boss (they also roll a little faster than the GP 4000S II)

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